Re-appeal for Multi Client Farming Instanced Maps

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BreadTomato

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Re-appeal for Multi Client Farm in Instanced Maps



Dear players and staff, I am writing this re-appeal regarding the multi client farming. I hope this can be a civilised discussion and not become a people-bashing post.



Firstly, I am grateful for the GMs and Admins for listening to the players suggestions and increase the limit of number of farming characters, but I would really like to suggest for this limit to not be present at all for instanced maps.



The public map issue has been emphasised by Cbbeh. I agree with all his points there. Public maps should be available for players to go to since those maps are highly,highly limited (1map per channel) compared to instanced maps. I fully agree with this matter at hand.



Now, let me move on to my argument regarding instanced maps.



For some backstory, I was a drop rate lumi farmer. Now I farm with 3 DS at bye bye(so ye of course this limit is still restricting me from playing the game how I want, but more on that below).



Firstly, I would like to address the views that multi client farming is cheating, unfair, and every negative connotation attached to it (botting aside as that is truly cheating of course). I was introduced to this farming method by my friend who does multi DS farm. He was earning so many cubes, gachas, boxes, much more than me in the same amount of time. I was like many of the players here who are doing 1 client farm, thinking it’s ‘unfair’, envious and jealous that he is getting so much more. However, what was stopping me from joining in the multiple DS farm? There was nothing, so instead of complaining that he is getting so much more, I decided to join onboard instead.

For the preparation, I spent my weekends grinding 3 DS to 140 at least. When my pink circ gave me Rare ability, I had to do normal azwan 22 times for 1 pink circ at a moment. Then I spent 70+ blue circs before I finally got %dr on my blue circs. I spent NX buying 3 pets with all 4 pet equips each on each DS, adding up to 9 pets and 36 pet equips. After a very hard grind for 2-3 days, I was finally set. The cost incurred was already way too huge to set off with a couple hours of 3 DS Farming.

Multi Client farming is also not easy as what people think. I’m sure a lot of people don’t like looting at Bye bye. Me too. I analysed the map layout and the map spawn time, as well as how long loot takes to expire.

Spawn duration takes about 6 seconds

The time it takes for me to change client is roughly 0.7 seconds. So for 3 clients, 3x2x0.7 = 4.2 seconds, so I have a little 1 second chill time before next spawn

Loot duration takes 3min 10 seconds to disppear.

When I demon cry, I have to switch clients after that, so in total I got to switch client 6 times within 6 seconds to farm effectively. In between, sometimes the spawn doesn’t come out immediately, so I got to be alert and only attack after the spawn comes out if not I waste precious demon fury.

After 21 times of Demon cry, I can’t attack anymore, so I gotta move. After about 40 demon cries per char, about 2mins have passed. This leaves me with 1min to loot everything on the map on my 3 char.

This 3min 10 second cycle repeats and repeats itself. I can’t even watch a show because I got to focus on the mobs, and I use my mouse to click alternate clients since Alt Tab would be too slow.

These paragraphs I’ve written is to really prove that 3 DS client is not as easy as it seems without breaking any rules. Nobody is stopping you from joining this method to earn more for yourself within the same time. To give some reference, a lumi drop rate earns about 400 boxes /h. With 3 ds farm, I get about 750 boxes/h. I don’t really see how this is unfair with the amount of effort I put in. If it is reduced to 2 clients, now I’ll probably make 500 boxes per hour with 2 clients but I wish I wasn’t so limited by this, and can play the game to my liking.



Also, making it available for instanced maps does not harm the players at all. I don’t think these mini dungeons are being capped out yet, if it is then I apologise for my lack of knowledge. I also don’t know if there are available systems to make this sort of farming easy without breaking the rules, so pardon my lack of knowledge too.

By making it available, sweaty players can still sweat without harming other players’ experience. Cubes and gacha prices are also lowered because of this high supply.



All in all, I mainly just want to point out these points :

Multi Client farming (even if on DS) is not easy, it requires a decent amount of concentration. If my fellow worker makes 5 cookies while watching a video on the sides, I think I should be able to get more rewards by focusing and making 15 cookies with the same amount of time.

Players should be allowed to play to their own liking, if they don’t negatively affect other players’ experience (which in this case hogging the public maps does)

Making instanced maps available for multi client farm satisfies the sweats, without harming the non-sweats (unless the server population explodes then ye in that case it will affect).



I understand that only a very small percentage of players are this hardcore, so whether this suggestion gets accepted or not, it is not going to affect majority of the players. However, I still really want to prove my point regarding multi client farm, and hope that it can be accepted so that the more hardcore players can still do their thing.



Thank you very much for reading and I hope you have a pleasant day! Sorry for these long paragraphs because I am just pouring out my thoughts regarding this situation. Thank you!
 
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Godsu123

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oh god, This guy is even smarter than Cbbeh.
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Let's ban people who watches movie / show / drama while they farm. they don't actively move + don't reply me straight. whenever i talk to them. who knows whether they were using botting or not. they are earning mesos too easily while watching a movie. i exactly know who they are. multiclient farmer rather focus on farming more than them. not afford to watch movies, or do other stuffs. and opportunities are fair to everyone. i would also complain about it. if multi client isn't allowed + someone farm with 2 computers. everyone does not have 2 computers. so i understand this. but multi client is available for everyone. everyone can try it. i guess the only reason you don't do this is because you are lazy to do it. and i don't see any exploit cuz of multi client farming. it's been for long time alr. but were there any recessions?. cube price is stabled at 2m price. and if you say fm is in recession. it is not bc of multi client farming. it is just bc playerbase is too few.
 
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Friend

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I think that if beyond a certain number of clients it becomes impossible for staff to tell whether someone is actually cheating or not, and limiting it to a certain number makes it so they can tell who is actively playing and who isn't following the ToS then so be it.
 

Taboo

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Multi-clienting wasn't even meant so you can abuse the shit out of it lol... It was meant so that you could buff yourself while playing if you felt like it so you didn't have to depend on others.
You guys are asking for an extremely gray area where GMs can't discern the difference from someone using a macro / botting and someone being sweaty.
You guys probably don't realize it but the more you complain, the higher the likelihood no multi-clienting comes back lol. Take what you've been given.
Time between spawns is halved by the way. It was part of the Unleashed? update so that Kanna wasn't a necessity for farming.
I now understand why Nexon removed mini-dungeons...
 

BreadTomato

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Thank you for the input
I was under the assumption that this issue only surfaced because of 1 player hogging public maps, depriving other players of the usage. The root cause was never about people complaining about multi client farm, but more so on not allowing 1 person to hog all the public maps on the server, and hence why I suggested to allow it for instanced maps. Pardon me if I was incorrect regarding this issue, because players have been doing such farming for a few months already, and there was no outright complains until one guy decided to hog public maps.

As for the cheating issue, personally for me I focus really hard when I do this farming method, attacking only when the mobs are spawned. Maybe out of 100 attacks, I would say 3-5 times are human error on my part attacking even though there are little to no mobs. I believe that when the staff are doing such checks, if a player is consistently attacking at regular times, attacking even when there are no mobs for a high percentage number of times, they are most likely cheating? If the GMs really want to, they can teleport the player out of the map to attest if that guy is cheating anot. While it will interrupt farming, I don’t think the players will mind as long as we ensure everyone does honest hard work, which will also improve the server.

I really do understand that this is a very gray area, however I do believe that if multi-client farming wasn’t a root cause of the issue, but more of the hogging of maps, maybe this should still be allowed to not limit other players who are playing honestly to farm as hard as they want?
 

Dametime

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As a person who is a lazy fuck to multiclient, I can see the other side to this as well. I think the main issue arises from players feeling cheated that after being allowed to multiclient farm for so long, (it has been accepted as the norm) they are being handicapped for their efforts. Prior to hearing about all the effort that goes in to farming using this method, I too felt that this was an unfair advantage to people multiclient farming. However, these people do farm more actively than 90% of the player base that don’t, considering all the ban appeals that have been posted here on forumpeople farming on one client while watching movies while farming and didn’t notice what was going on.

I’d like to think of multiclient farming as using a hyper tele rock, convenient as hell to use and saves you time in the long run but costs a little up front. Is it nice to have? yes, but even if you don’t, you still end up at the same place. Just cuz someone found a way to exploit the rocks to tele into the bosses and spam the bosses doesn’t mean everyone else should suffer for one guy’s clear exploitation of the rules and have hyper tele rocks limited to teleporting to towns only or not at all.

I’d like to also mention that even with multiclient farming allowed, prior to red event, cube prices have steadily increased in prices too. I don’t believe that multiclienting is abusing the system at all as this server has gone for so many months with multiclient farming with no adverse effects.To call it abusing the system is a poor choice of words as the staff have been okay with this for so long, only to bring it up now, when one guy clearly exploited the rules. Not to mention that he got off scot free while the rest of the server who used this method were more respectful in the way that they approached this and still got more heavily penalized (he even said it’s his “job” to find all the exploits, meaning he did this knowing he was intentionally exploiting the system and reaping benefits just to screw over everyone else) As for the botting issue that may arise from this, why is this suddenly such a big issue, when it has been happening for a long time now. Why wasn’t anything said earlier when this first started before people invested so much time and Mesos into these projects. A lot of things don’t seem to be adding up here

edited for grammar
 
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TradeMarks

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I don't mean to offense but, All i can see here is a player who is agitated about the fact that he wasted loads of time and money to make these characters to abuse multi client.
Let me tell you this buddy, I have played pservers since 2010 and an absolute 100% of the servers would have banned you for multi clienting...... it shouldn't be like that.
Good job bro you managed to abuse it for months prob and they put a stop to it, its reasonable deal with it.
we should be grateful they let us have a bishop walk around and buff us even!
If you feel the progression is too slow with one character farming you are on the wrong server! its meant to be slow and by doing 3 characters you are collapsing the market with red cubes normal price of 2.5m dropping to 1.8-2m each......
In addition i will be honest, im very skeptical about ur "Farming method"- im thinking you are just using macro program.
Inconclusion all i see here is a player crying about the fact he wasted time making characters and putting money in them. while by doing it he actually hurts the community, i see no merit in letting people farming with 3-4 characters!
 

Toph

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Just cuz someone found a way to exploit the rocks to tele into the bosses and spam the bosses doesn’t mean everyone else should suffer for one guy’s clear exploitation of the rules and have hyper tele rocks limited to teleporting to towns only or not at all.

Not to mention that he got off scot free while the rest of the server who used this method were more respectful in the way that they approached this and still got more heavily penalized (he even said it’s his “job” to find all the exploits, meaning he did this knowing he was intentionally exploiting the system and reaping benefits just to screw over everyone else) As for the botting issue that may arise from this, why is this suddenly such a big issue, when it has been happening for a long time now. Why wasn’t anything said earlier when this first started before people invested so much time and Mesos into these projects. A lot of things don’t seem to be adding up here

First off, and my most important point through all of this regardless of what is allowed or disallowed, is this ridiculous finger pointing game a bunch of people have been playing, (many, many people) directed towards this individual. He played the game, just like everyone else and did something similar to A TON of people, apparently, since some use 3+ ds to farm. This dude has been subjected to a ton of hate and its seriously starting to get on my damn nerves. Stop pointing the finger at him just because he was the first person to get banned doing it. NO one should be specifically punished or targeted bc of this. Everyone on the server was given the same rule, so its not a punishment to certain individuals, its a new rule. I hate the way people are saying everyone is getting punished bc of one individuals actions, when tons of people were doing a very similar thing. Stop with the finger pointing, it solves absolutely nothing.

2nd of all, I was in the conversation where he said "his job is to find all exploits" he specifically said that its "players jobs to find exploits in a game" which to a point is true, many players push the limits on what is deemed acceptable or not, this player comes from Royals which is insanely farm heavy and that incentivizes a ton of different clients to farm/ train whatever. I don't think this should be construed to make him look even worse towards the community that is already shitting on him hard enough.

3rd of all, and my final point, if someone is farming on multiple clients and it's hard to see whether or not their botting then this rule should be in place. I think the staff is insanely lenient on the bot checking and in many mmo's ive played that are farm heavy its like a 15 second bot check and if you don't respond, you're banned. If farming is going to be allowed on multiple clients/ comps at a time, shorten the lie detector test. If these players are seriously paying as much attention to the game as they say then this won't really be an issue.
 

BreadTomato

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First off, and my most important point through all of this regardless of what is allowed or disallowed, is this ridiculous finger pointing game a bunch of people have been playing, (many, many people) directed towards this individual. He played the game, just like everyone else and did something similar to A TON of people, apparently, since some use 3+ ds to farm. This dude has been subjected to a ton of hate and its seriously starting to get on my damn nerves. Stop pointing the finger at him just because he was the first person to get banned doing it. NO one should be specifically punished or targeted bc of this. Everyone on the server was given the same rule, so its not a punishment to certain individuals, its a new rule. I hate the way people are saying everyone is getting punished bc of one individuals actions, when tons of people were doing a very similar thing. Stop with the finger pointing, it solves absolutely nothing.

2nd of all, I was in the conversation where he said "his job is to find all exploits" he specifically said that its "players jobs to find exploits in a game" which to a point is true, many players push the limits on what is deemed acceptable or not, this player comes from Royals which is insanely farm heavy and that incentivizes a ton of different clients to farm/ train whatever. I don't think this should be construed to make him look even worse towards the community that is already shitting on him hard enough.

3rd of all, and my final point, if someone is farming on multiple clients and it's hard to see whether or not their botting then this rule should be in place. I think the staff is insanely lenient on the bot checking and in many mmo's ive played that are farm heavy its like a 15 second bot check and if you don't respond, you're banned. If farming is going to be allowed on multiple clients/ comps at a time, shorten the lie detector test. If these players are seriously paying as much attention to the game as they say then this won't really be an issue.
I agree with you, I am not trying to point hate at that guy, but more of re-emphasising the cause of the issue. Apologies if any offense has been taken.

As someone who really focuses on farming (I don’t even watch videos), I am 100%, perfectly fine with more tests/checks by GM since 99% of the time I don’t attack unless mobs have spawn, and pay close attention to mobs spawning (unless I click accidentally or negligence). I would like this even so that we can deter botting even further.

Thank you for the input, and let’s not point fingers at anyone and keep this discussion civil.

To keep this topic on track, I would also like to ask for clarification on why this is considered ‘abuse’(before the rule), since there wasn’t such a rule against this initially.

Thank you for reading!
 

Dametime

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Funny when he started using his methods of pumping out 1000 cubes a day the cube prices started dropping to where you said trademarks.

also, is it not true toph that the new rules were implemented after his ban? Multiclienting has been a thing for months with people “abusing” it, yet it wasn’t a problem till now. I don’t condone toxicity directed at the player, but nor do I believe he is innocent.
 

Toph

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Funny when he started using his methods of pumping out 1000 cubes a day the cube prices started dropping to where you said trademarks.

also, is it not true toph that the new rules were implemented after his ban? Multiclienting has been a thing for months with people “abusing” it, yet it wasn’t a problem till now. I don’t condone toxicity directed at the player, but nor do I believe he is innocent.
Who knows how long that has been in the process though? It was implemented now but I don't doubt its something the staff may have wanted for a while.
 

Godsu123

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I don't mean to offense but, All i can see here is a player who is agitated about the fact that he wasted loads of time and money to make these characters to abuse multi client.
Let me tell you this buddy, I have played pservers since 2010 and an absolute 100% of the servers would have banned you for multi clienting...... it shouldn't be like that.
Good job bro you managed to abuse it for months prob and they put a stop to it, its reasonable deal with it.
we should be grateful they let us have a bishop walk around and buff us even!
If you feel the progression is too slow with one character farming you are on the wrong server! its meant to be slow and by doing 3 characters you are collapsing the market with red cubes normal price of 2.5m dropping to 1.8-2m each......
In addition i will be honest, im very skeptical about ur "Farming method"- im thinking you are just using macro program.
Inconclusion all i see here is a player crying about the fact he wasted time making characters and putting money in them. while by doing it he actually hurts the community, i see no merit in letting people farming with 3-4 characters!
p servers where i played in kms didn't ban multi client farmers at all. they banned 'botters' only.
 

Millium

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I don't mean to offense but, All i can see here is a player who is agitated about the fact that he wasted loads of time and money to make these characters to abuse multi client.
Let me tell you this buddy, I have played pservers since 2010 and an absolute 100% of the servers would have banned you for multi clienting...... it shouldn't be like that.
Good job bro you managed to abuse it for months prob and they put a stop to it, its reasonable deal with it.
we should be grateful they let us have a bishop walk around and buff us even!
If you feel the progression is too slow with one character farming you are on the wrong server! its meant to be slow and by doing 3 characters you are collapsing the market with red cubes normal price of 2.5m dropping to 1.8-2m each......
In addition i will be honest, im very skeptical about ur "Farming method"- im thinking you are just using macro program.
Inconclusion all i see here is a player crying about the fact he wasted time making characters and putting money in them. while by doing it he actually hurts the community, i see no merit in letting people farming with 3-4 characters!
Cube prices naturally go up and down. They’ve been this cheap before, and they probably will be again. I don’t think multi client farming hurts the community, but rather the opposite. It increases the supply of commonly used items (while sometimes lowering the price), and generally frees up popular maps like ulu, because most people who multi client farm just go to a mini dungeon.
 

Bombmouse

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I've only skimmed the thread so forgive me if I miss a couple points but to start this off Staff were already kind enough to loosen up the restriction on Multiple clients to allow up to 2 clients to be able to attack at a time consistently (You can still go above 2 for self-buffs, leeching, etc) and this isn't the first time they've done this either; For those of you here that were around when Progressive first started you'll likely remember that multiple clients weren't allowed to begin with; Anyone emulating or finding a way to open a second client on their computer was a bannable offense back then.

This isn't the first time multiple clients have been abused and it's been a constant battle for how lenient things should be and what's considered going too far. Old v92 had this problem, v92 Reboot had this Problem, Progressive's had many issues with it as well. It's not something that's new to the game by any means and it was honestly only a matter of time before the question got asked "How far is too far?". Progressive is also a special case because the server itself is constantly going up in patches and things can change drastically in a couple months time. Staff kind of have to take a reactionary stance because the game we know today could be different tomorrow and there's been plenty of things introduced that made sense back in the day that might not make all that much sense now.

Also consider that there's so many factors that go into everything that it's impossible to reliably identify every scenario in which something could be abused and that every angle can be covered; Just because it was the norm for most doesn't make it right in the long run. Something shouldn't be allowed just because people have invested resources into it either, if that were the case then I can justify buying an auto-farming program with real money and make the argument that I invested resources to get it therefore it should be allowed (Which is absolutely not the case).

I understand players frustration with the new rule but this really only affects the people that bridged the gap between reasonable and tool-assisted/using a 3rd party program. I think allowing 2 farming clients maximum is a good decision for those that wanna go the extra mile but also to keep things reasonable and the server's longevity in a healthy state. Things like this can have drastic effects on the game's ecosystem and just because we haven't experienced the long term effects of it yet doesn't mean we should wait to do something about it until we do start seeing it.

Lastly let's keep other player's names out of this discussion as it has no place here; Anyone could've gotten banned for it and I can say with almost certainty that they weren't the only ones who were doing it either, they were just unfortunate enough to be the ones that got called out on it. If you're one of the players that's coming here to complain that you can't use 3+ clients anymore to farm then you're likely no more innocent than the player who got caught. Leave the toxicity at the door and quit the witch hunting, you wouldn't like it anymore than they do if you were in their shoes so let's not run yet another player off our wonderful server.
 

cbbeh

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Hi TradeMarks, I don't mean to offense but if u referring to those private server that disallow people from multiclienting at the first place of course they will get ban if they violated the rule. which Croosade allowed multiclienting. I also quite curious about the word you used as multiclienting farming as "abuse" . how did that word even come from if the rule didn't stated it before? As what i know that people was farming like that way before the event started.

Hi Toph, I don't agree on people who pointed to that player as well but my suggestion is that you can screenshot the dm that is "toxic" towards him and let GM do the job. In my previous thread, i was saying the player caused the ToS update which this is a fact that you can't deny. As rule changes on

  • 2020-09-22: Due to several complaints from the community about a single individual taking a map in most/all channels of the server, and because it's hard to differentiate such farming methods from botting, constantly attacking on more than one character at the same time will no longer be allowed (1.2 Botting).
also please take note it's referring a single individual taking a map in most/all channels of the server which it was never a problem when people farming in instance map. Also if that guys was trying to find exploit in a game, he could just share to GM when he "found" the exploit, but if it wasn't the first day he been doing that when he streaming i don't think this statement "players jobs to find exploits in a game" is valid as well.

However i do agree frequent bot check can be implemented.
 

Friend

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I don't farm like this, I wouldn't even do two clients because I think the reward is too little for how much effort it requires... but I think that it's cool if people want to devote that much time into leveling their mules and getting the correct inner potentials and so on. I respect your grinds.

However, I don't see the point in keeping it going. If staff says that some methods make it so they can't differentiate between bots and real people, then that's that.

It's about optics in two ways too: 1) it shows that staff cares about botters and wants to reduce them 2) it's more believable to the average player if someone is using his two hands to handle two accounts on two clients/computers. 3 gets fishy, 4 or more just gets to "I'm controlling my extra laptops with my feet" levels unbelievable (even if it turns out it's legit).
 

Godsu123

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Seems like multiclienting has never been the issue for admins, or at least from what berg seemed to say. No warning on being careful for being seen as botting or anything so I don’t see the problem suddenly with multiclienting. Add a lie detector test or patrol bot, but the problem isn’t multiclienting to a degree
 

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TradeMarks

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Hi TradeMarks, I don't mean to offense but if u referring to those private server that disallow people from multiclienting at the first place of course they will get ban if they violated the rule. which Croosade allowed multiclienting. I also quite curious about the word you used as multiclienting farming as "abuse" . how did that word even come from if the rule didn't stated it before? As what i know that people was farming like that way before the event started.

Hi Toph, I don't agree on people who pointed to that player as well but my suggestion is that you can screenshot the dm that is "toxic" towards him and let GM do the job. In my previous thread, i was saying the player caused the ToS update which this is a fact that you can't deny. As rule changes on

  • 2020-09-22: Due to several complaints from the community about a single individual taking a map in most/all channels of the server, and because it's hard to differentiate such farming methods from botting, constantly attacking on more than one character at the same time will no longer be allowed (1.2 Botting).
also please take note it's referring a single individual taking a map in most/all channels of the server which it was never a problem when people farming in instance map. Also if that guys was trying to find exploit in a game, he could just share to GM when he "found" the exploit, but if it wasn't the first day he been doing that when he streaming i don't think this statement "players jobs to find exploits in a game" is valid as well.

However i do agree frequent bot check can be implemented.
So lemme ask u a question, you will find a way to dupe lots of lots of mcs and cubes through some way, and you will abuse it and wont tell the admins till u finally collapse the market, "There wasnt a rule about it, its not my fault" thats what you want to say????? i dont get it.
its exactly the same thing, its just a loophole in the TOS of the server.....
 
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