Rebirth Flames

SimpleP

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wouldn't it be easier to just progress to bonus pot. cubes instead of flames or would that just scale to well and make the game to easy? If i don't recall flames were usually done to equipment after they were transposed for sweet water gear that was enhanced already if my memory recalls
 

Momori

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wouldn't it be easier to just progress to bonus pot. cubes instead of flames or would that just scale to well and make the game to easy? If i don't recall flames were usually done to equipment after they were transposed for sweet water gear that was enhanced already if my memory recalls
Hmm idk why some set bpots and flames on the same tier, but flames replaced nebulites and not bpots.

and no u basically use a flame to reset the bonus stats on an equipment, necessarily had nothing to do with transposing or enhancing.
 

Taboo

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I think it depends on what exactly the plan is for star force. No bosses before the star force system gets introduced will require the general population here to receive a damage boost. Basically, if staff are certain they're going to stay with no stars even beyond the star force update, then yes flames are perfectly fine. If its a matter of being uncertain though, I'd hold off. We do also have prime scrolls coming up as I'm sure everyones aware of. Those should also require a discussion I feel whether we actually want them available here if we end up getting flames as well.
Hello? Dorothy???
Star force brings up an entirely new discussion unfortunately. One that I particularly don't really feel like dealing with lol.

This seems like a really bad idea that's just going to speed up how stale this server is going to get after red/gollux. I honestly wonder if people here understand that after this next patch we aren't getting a boss stronger than cvel for 14 patches and as of right now people can already duo cvel. In my opinion this server doesn't update quick enough to add things in like flames this early when they aren't necessary.
This sounds like you're talking about those who have picked the strongest classes and have invested a lot of time to progress to being able to nearly solo the hardest bosses. I would disagree that adding more way to gear up making the server stale. Flames would provide another avenue that allows the player to feel like they're progressing instead of always coming up dry each time they play.

I'm not against adding flames but the thing is the content progression has to be in corresponding pace with it. Now we have players reaching endgame within 2 months and it still might take like 1 month (don't quote this) until red. Same scenario for flames: people reaching endgame even faster than it is now and according to @Sylosis , we won't have a stronger boss / endgame content quite soon. Is this server really ready (e.g. enough new content) for the potential stale a while after flames hits? We could have flames, only if the game update is in the same pace.
I honestly think people reaching end game in 2 months is over reaching. If that is the case, those people must be spending a lot of their time playing. The amount of time it takes to gear up in any aspect is quite unrewarding for a passive player. I am proposing flames to help bridge this gap in progression.

I rather have a better option to evolve in existing mechanics rather than adding new ones... Like monster life for example has a great potential of giving buff dur and some other stuff, that arent requiring farming in game.
Monster life periodically gets updated. I don't believe there are any intentions to customize it.

I think this would be a good addition to the game however because it would make Croosade a lot more intuitive to new and returning players because as it currently stands there isn't really a middle ground for gear progression. Once you reach your end-game equipment your only options are to cube it and then it's straight to chaos scrolling; However a lot of people can be turned off by this because 1 bad scroll can destroy your equipment entirely meaning you lose a lot of what you gained most of the time and it can be a hassle trying to recover from such a thing.

With Flames introduced though there can be a bit more of a cushion for players as they can explore a different route for gearing up and still get stronger without fear of ruining their equipment; It'll be easier for players to transition from late to end game as they'd have more of a foundation to work off of as well as possibly having the losses from chaosing maybe hurt a little bit less.
Pretty much my thoughts.

I don't think they should be added yet if at all. right now all the content is available for all players. its not too hard to kill vellum for most of the squads and that's the hardest boss right now. when gollux is added hellux will have a certain part that's more tough but fine, just don't solo hellux and there's no problem.
I'm generally in favour or slowing down the absolute arrival of solostory. i think maplestory is best served with friends in a party
While yes, you have "squads" doing bosses, new players and returning playing should be more considered. If you're already strong, nothings going to stop you from remaining strong. The process to get there for a somewhat passive player is non existent. When I read "it's not too hard to kill vellum" I think of the fact that I personally have never geared up legitimately to the point where I've been able to kill that boss. Sure it's not hard for people that have gotten that far, but there are many more that basically have no chance at reaching such a point in the game.

wouldn't it be easier to just progress to bonus pot. cubes instead of flames or would that just scale to well and make the game to easy? If i don't recall flames were usually done to equipment after they were transposed for sweet water gear that was enhanced already if my memory recalls
Bonus potentials are a big step. I personally do not find them necessary in a non pay-to-win environment. I believe people would be able to easily cap if there was no scrolling and just potential and bonus potential. I can't be bothered to confirm that but it's just an example of how strong bonus potentials are.
 

Sylosis

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I really think what is confusing me and a lot of other players I talk to about this topic is the fact that this seemingly goes against everything croosade has stood for up until this point. I'm really not trying to stir the pot when I bring this up but we still haven't gotten hmag and the reasoning was "tyrant items are way too op to give you guys" and now it seems like that logic has suddenly been thrown out the window with this suggestion because flames give a way bigger boost than tyrant gear would.

I feel like croosade has always had this identity that promoted more of a competitive atmosphere and conversations like this just leave me and alot of older players confused as to what the hell is going on. It seems like the future and the direction of the server is very up in the air at the moment. As I said before I think flames could be an alright addition if we got content much faster then we currently do. But as of right now if this gets added I just see us losing a lot of the older players to possibly bring in more new players which could be a very risky gambit.
 

Threat

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Bonus potentials are a big step. I personally do not find them necessary in a non pay-to-win environment. I believe people would be able to easily cap if there was no scrolling and just potential and bonus potential. I can't be bothered to confirm that but it's just an example of how strong bonus potentials are.

I don't give a shit what you guys do since I don't play but to give some insight on bpots, the biggest bpot gains would probably be weapon secondary (% attack/dmg lines) since they're full equivalent mpot %atk lines. Other than that, the gains on other pieces of gear would be similar to what you're gonna see on flames. The most relevant line would be like stat + 2 per 10 levels which is like 40 stat for the average person, and a prime line so duplicates of this wouldn't be super common, other than that I believe on CRA gear? prime line main stat on bpots is 7% and non prime is 5%. Also bpot has like 5 million shit lines and is a pain to roll imho unless you guys remove the shit lines.

Comparing this to flames, if people actually roll like t5-t7 flames for stat + all stat%, a decent flame would be like 40-60 stat and 5-6% all stat on armor /non-ring, shoulder accessory pieces. So, overall the biggest differences in bpot/flame potential ceiling is probably the weapons which is basically flame stats (atk + %dmg + %bd) vs weapon bpots (att/dmg%)

I do think if you do add flames, you should probably implement drops automatically coming with flamed stats, just capped to be not the highest tier (say limiting to t5 on any dropped gear) this would probably help a lot of early game players with a bit of free stats to help with progression.

Edit: I forgot flat attack was a bpot line thats pretty nutty at low stat so maybe lean toward flames :oops:
 
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PandaLu

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Please add them!As a new player, it will be of great help.
 

mitbuiviet

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if this gets added I just see us losing a lot of the older players to possibly bring in more new players which could be a very risky gambit.
Older players quitting because this is added doesn't sound right to me. Older players play the game not just because the game is competitive and challenging, they play because it sticks and there are tons of things in game beside the powering-up, like helping the guild and socializing. And when this can possibly bring more new players , I'm pretty confident it will please the "older" players even more. More players, more fun, and more chances for new/passive/casual players to stay relevant with others, this will make the game stick.
 

yuvalzr234

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Monster life periodically gets updated. I don't believe there are any intentions to customize it.
not customize but make some of it function, some stuff still arent finished and some are bugged, and boxes u can purchase with gems aint working and those are the monsters that give the good stuff that actually make the work pay off. also what about the runes system? that shud already be in game at this point no?
 

float

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this is actually the perfect time to add flames if sweetwater gets added, also think cap should be tier4 or 5.
I do disagree about them being untradeable tho if it comes to that, farming meso/cubes is still effort & some people (like myself) would rather buy flames at times instead of doing specific content to farm them.

wouldn't it be easier to just progress to bonus pot. cubes instead of flames or would that just scale to well and make the game to easy? If i don't recall flames were usually done to equipment after they were transposed for sweet water gear that was enhanced already if my memory recalls
bpot is insanely broken at this patch, 2 lines of flat att would give so much range that u might not even need to scroll any of ur items (btw u wanna flame before u transpose, sw isnt considered a boss item so flames on them are quite shite)
 

Taboo

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I do think if you do add flames, you should probably implement drops automatically coming with flamed stats, just capped to be not the highest tier (say limiting to t5 on any dropped gear) this would probably help a lot of early game players with a bit of free stats to help with progression.

Edit: I forgot flat attack was a bpot line thats pretty nutty at low stat so maybe lean toward flames :oops:
Bonus potential is pretty crazy considering every item that can have a potential can have a bonus, while flames are a bit more restricted. Also considering bonus potential allows multiple % lines. While yes the stats you could obtain from the stat stacking of flames could even out to the percentage gain, the odds of what I even put as my example don't pan out that often. Even then, you can always flame better so it's something that can continually be rerolled.
The items dropping with pre-applied may happen but of course nothing has gone into this idea currently other than this post and confirming the client supports it.

Again, I haven't done research but I can only assume lines like %all stat on a flame is more rare more than other stats. That, as well as how many lines you obtain from applying a flame.

I suppose if it was added, the cap could be tier 5 if they feel like it. At any time they could raise it if need be. Starting with all tiers then going backward will only lead to angry boys.

I guess I can start looking into data.
 

Kumacy

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My humble opinion on Rebirth Flames as a whole

Flames essentially serves as another method through Additional Options to help gear up newer and already established players by introducing Bonus Stats onto their equipment. This boost in damage would aid players from all various playing fields as there seems to be a net positive win, seeing that there isn’t any negative value to be lost with it essentially acting as a 100% Chaos Scroll of Goodness.

Despite it being a net positive win for newer and already established players, it introduces yet another RNG element to Croosade as a whole. Even though Rebirth Flames are generally positive RNG (There’s only positive values to be had for using Rebirth Flames as compared to Chaos Scrolling gears), it would essentially serve as yet another mechanic that players need to spend time on rolling a dice to hit what they want. This is exceptionally true if flames are not abundant like cubes and are time-limited / untradeable.

Flames would also largely effect the economy of Croosade. Dropped gears that are affected by the different tiers / lines of Bonus Stats would be sold at a much higher price than gears that are weaker in terms of Bonus Stats. This change in prices would affect newer players more than already established players. Newer players are then forced to use their Rebirth flames on sub-optimal gears such as those CRA gears that are cheaper with weaker Bonus Stats. Eventually these new players would then need to Chaos their already flamed gears. If these already flamed gears get scrolled badly, they would need to restart the entire process unless they are willing to purchase Innocence Scrolls to save their already flamed gears. This seems counterproductive and would deter new players from playing Croosade.

I believe the implementation of Rebirth Flames should be looked into further before being introduced in Croosade.
 

Taboo

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Despite it being a net positive win for newer and already established players, it introduces yet another RNG element to Croosade as a whole. Even though Rebirth Flames are generally positive RNG (There’s only positive values to be had for using Rebirth Flames as compared to Chaos Scrolling gears), it would essentially serve as yet another mechanic that players need to spend time on rolling a dice to hit what they want. This is exceptionally true if flames are not abundant like cubes and are time-limited / untradeable.

Flames would also largely effect the economy of Croosade. Dropped gears that are affected by the different tiers / lines of Bonus Stats would be sold at a much higher price than gears that are weaker in terms of Bonus Stats. This change in prices would affect newer players more than already established players. Newer players are then forced to use their Rebirth flames on sub-optimal gears such as those CRA gears that are cheaper with weaker Bonus Stats. Eventually these new players would then need to Chaos their already flamed gears. If these already flamed gears get scrolled badly, they would need to restart the entire process unless they are willing to purchase Innocence Scrolls to save their already flamed gears. This seems counterproductive and would deter new players from playing Croosade.

I believe the implementation of Rebirth Flames should be looked into further before being introduced in Croosade.
I understand your concerns but I feel they're quite extreme. They are not meant to be a core feature of increasing your range. I do not believe they would largely affect the economy at all. Maybe a decent flame for a looted item would net an extra couple million mesos on an item that's good for the slot it's in but that's it. Even in GMS, items dropped have lower tiers than if you used a flame. What I find fun is even while looting the same item, it could be a bit stronger than the previously looted version was. This way you're still getting a bit stronger while leveling up. Part of the point of making the flames time limited is to make it so you aren't simply "wasting" the attempt on sub-optimal item. I think you are giving flames more importance than what they really are.

I've done a bit of research. If we do not implement the "flame advantage" category, it'll offer another way of gaining range but not drastically change the way people play the game. That being said, I haven't submitted any data to even begin the process of coding, testing and viewing the effects that it would have on someones range.
 

Gabe

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Ok. Flames are a good option to increase range. It also makes the race for a perfect gear more fun but. If you’re giving us a new system, don’t nerf it, please. Nerfs are something that by history Is associated to cut power, and on croosade, that means cut off our progression. Make it gms like.

There’s another problem with flames, it’s a kind of a confuse system, since you have to guess what stats you got and subtract the bonus stats you already have on your item (it is not like gms nowadays, which the flame stats are show by green). You can see the old system here

With my previously experience with flames, you need A LOT of flames, something like 50+ to get a real decent potential which I think by making them only obtainable by elite boss are kind of a hard system that would make a lot of angry folks.

My suggestion about it is.

Make them craftable (not sure if a cooldown should be applied or not)
You need some items that could be bought in events shops and also in Kritias shop how it supposed to be in gms.

Make them buyable in every coin shop we have on game with a cooldown of one week, 2~3 per shop should be ok.
- Boss coin shop
- CRA coin shop
- Gollux coin shop
- PQ coin shop
- Sillent Crusader coin shop

Make them a prize from automated events and also in every event shop we get
This way, events would be more fun and people would give a dam for them. (please accept my event suggest <3)

Make them a stanced drop from bosses like croosade coins
Only hard bosses such as CPB, Empress, CRA and Lotus, Damian etc with a low percent.

This way, flames became more common and would be less farming obtainable, since it will be a untradeable and time limited item, not everyone will have the time to farm for it. Make things easier but not super hard. Thanks!
 
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Kumacy

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I understand your concerns but I feel they're quite extreme. They are not meant to be a core feature of increasing your range. I do not believe they would largely affect the economy at all. Maybe a decent flame for a looted item would net an extra couple million mesos on an item that's good for the slot it's in but that's it. Even in GMS, items dropped have lower tiers than if you used a flame. What I find fun is even while looting the same item, it could be a bit stronger than the previously looted version was. This way you're still getting a bit stronger while leveling up. Part of the point of making the flames time limited is to make it so you aren't simply "wasting" the attempt on sub-optimal item. I think you are giving flames more importance than what they really are.

I've done a bit of research. If we do not implement the "flame advantage" category, it'll offer another way of gaining range but not drastically change the way people play the game. That being said, I haven't submitted any data to even begin the process of coding, testing and viewing the effects that it would have on someones range.
Thank you for the reply Taboo, it's always nice to have responses or feedbacks in order for a discussion to take place.

I agree entirely with you that Rebirth Flames are not meant to be a core feature of increasing your range and that it is definitely fun to loot a piece of similar equipment with it being stronger than the previous ones. These points though valid, are not representative of Croosade's culture and gameplay.

With it not being a core feature of increasing one's range, how much would it actually enable a newer player in contrast to an already established player? The idea of looting a piece of similar equipment being stronger is definitely a sign of progression however I believe this is more in line with official servers as the EXP progression is slower (Party Play in LHC is removed in officials), allowing players to hunt and farm their own gears as compared to leeching in LHC in Croosade.

In terms of economy-wise, if dropped items do indeed have lower tiers as compared to applying Rebirth Flames on them, it is indeed fair to point out that the dropped gears would at best net an extra couple million mesos. This still means that newer players are required to pay more then what would be required of them. This also does not change the fact that newer players would be required to Chaos these Flamed gears resulting in more mesos spent if the Chaos wasn't ideal. This increase in gear prices would mainly affect newer players more so then already established players.

I also understand the reasons for making Rebirth Flames untradeable or time-limited however if the purpose of Rebirth Flames were to bridge a gap between newer players and established players. I believe Rebirth Flames actually does the opposite of the intended purpose. Besides newer players being required to spend more mesos on gears, they would be required to use their Rebirth Flames on these gears (Temporary Solution in Bridging the Gap) since Rebirth Flames are untradeable and time-limited. Afterwards, they would eventually need to Chaos Scroll their already flamed gears which creates the issue of them using Flames on sub-optimal gears. If the Chaos Scroll turns out badly, they face a choice of purchasing an Innocence Scroll to save their Rebirth Flames or Purchasing another set of gears to try their luck (Remember that gears would be more expensive than usual?). Compared to already established players who only need to use Rebirth Flames on their gears (Further increasing the gap between Newer and Established Players), this seems to be more beneficial towards Established players as compared to Newer players.

The RNG aspect is another point of discussion as well. Established players would probably have more time to Min-Max their Rebirth Flames as they have less on their hands as compared to a Newer Player. This results in Rebirth Flames not bridging the gap but being another RNG element that newer players have to face to reach end-game.

Sidenote - I'm actually not against the implementation of Rebirth Flames but what I'm getting at is the intended purpose of introducing Rebirth Flames. If the intended purpose was to as Bombmouse stated, " easier for players to transition from late to end game as they'd have more of a foundation to work off of as well as possibly having the losses from chaosing maybe hurt a little bit less " or what Taboo as stated " I am proposing flames to help bridge this gap in progression. ", I do not believe it to be the case as stated above.
 

Taboo

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Ok. Flames are a good option to increase range. It also makes the race for a perfect gear more fun but. If you’re giving us a new system, don’t nerf it, please. Nerfs are something that by history Is associated to cut power, and on croosade, that means cut off our progression. Make it gms like.

There’s another problem with flames, it’s a kind of a confuse system, since you have to guess what stats you got and subtract the bonus stats you already have on your item (it is not like gms nowadays, which the flame stats are show by green). You can see the old system here

With my previously experience with flames, you need A LOT of flames, something like 50+ to get a real decent potential which I think by making them only obtainable by elite boss are kind of a hard system that would make a lot of angry folks.

My suggestion about it is.

Make them craftable (not sure if a cooldown should be applied or not)
You need some items that could be bought in events shops and also in Kritias shop how it supposed to be in gms.
When flames were introduced in GMS, cubes were sparse. This is only no longer a case at least in reboot. But also, the damage cap is now 10 billion. From my understanding, the stats are applied before potentials. Since cubes are not behind a paywall, stats could be amplified to an extreme. It's a process, so I have not tested anything yet. Separating stats into a green color in this version does not happen (other than all stat%), at least at a preliminary glance.
Making them craftable depends on what's in the files.

Flames being from elite monsters was just the initial idea that sparked my interest in helping introduce them. I'm not going to make decisions on where they are added but of course in GMS they drop from bosses. Putting them in the plethora of boss shops is redundant.


Thank you for the reply Taboo, it's always nice to have responses or feedbacks in order for a discussion to take place.

I agree entirely with you that Rebirth Flames are not meant to be a core feature of increasing your range and that it is definitely fun to loot a piece of similar equipment with it being stronger than the previous ones. These points though valid, are not representative of Croosade's culture and gameplay.

With it not being a core feature of increasing one's range, how much would it actually enable a newer player in contrast to an already established player? The idea of looting a piece of similar equipment being stronger is definitely a sign of progression however I believe this is more in line with official servers as the EXP progression is slower (Party Play in LHC is removed in officials), allowing players to hunt and farm their own gears as compared to leeching in LHC in Croosade.

In terms of economy-wise, if dropped items do indeed have lower tiers as compared to applying Rebirth Flames on them, it is indeed fair to point out that the dropped gears would at best net an extra couple million mesos. This still means that newer players are required to pay more then what would be required of them. This also does not change the fact that newer players would be required to Chaos these Flamed gears resulting in more mesos spent if the Chaos wasn't ideal. This increase in gear prices would mainly affect newer players more so then already established players.

I also understand the reasons for making Rebirth Flames untradeable or time-limited however if the purpose of Rebirth Flames were to bridge a gap between newer players and established players. I believe Rebirth Flames actually does the opposite of the intended purpose. Besides newer players being required to spend more mesos on gears, they would be required to use their Rebirth Flames on these gears (Temporary Solution in Bridging the Gap) since Rebirth Flames are untradeable and time-limited. Afterwards, they would eventually need to Chaos Scroll their already flamed gears which creates the issue of them using Flames on sub-optimal gears. If the Chaos Scroll turns out badly, they face a choice of purchasing an Innocence Scroll to save their Rebirth Flames or Purchasing another set of gears to try their luck (Remember that gears would be more expensive than usual?). Compared to already established players who only need to use Rebirth Flames on their gears (Further increasing the gap between Newer and Established Players), this seems to be more beneficial towards Established players as compared to Newer players.

The RNG aspect is another point of discussion as well. Established players would probably have more time to Min-Max their Rebirth Flames as they have less on their hands as compared to a Newer Player. This results in Rebirth Flames not bridging the gap but being another RNG element that newer players have to face to reach end-game.

Sidenote - I'm actually not against the implementation of Rebirth Flames but what I'm getting at is the intended purpose of introducing Rebirth Flames. If the intended purpose was to as Bombmouse stated, " easier for players to transition from late to end game as they'd have more of a foundation to work off of as well as possibly having the losses from chaosing maybe hurt a little bit less " or what Taboo as stated " I am proposing flames to help bridge this gap in progression. ", I do not believe it to be the case as stated above.
I'm sorry, I still think you are over valuing an item with a flame applied when dropped. It isn't likely someone would go out of their way to throw flames on gear they're selling to raise the price. They would be sacrificing their own rerolls for a chance at an extra mil or two. Regardless I don't intend for the system to be catered towards flames being extremely rare. They just wont be abundant like cubes.
The system will simply reward just playing the game. Of course those that are already established will benefit. But the extra stats will help boost up newer players.

The system is simply another avenue to work on your character. Currently there's a bit of a wall for scrolling gear. It's a semi passive way to bridge that gap. If you get an amazing flame (can most likely always do better) before it's scrolled then GG. You can decide if you want to scroll it or scroll a different item and flame that later, but for now you have the flamed item that will help you out while you consider your options.
 

yuvalzr234

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I think by the time wed have gollux we wont need the flames because well have too much to work towards therefore i dont believe its a right call atm.
 

Rats

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gollux by itself adds and replaces the following:
3 rings (2 if you're a gamer)
both pendants
belt (if you're unfortunate)
earrings
all of those items have dedicated scrolls to them just remember the protection scrolls
superior belt and pendant only drop off of hellux, have a set drop so drop % does absolutely nothing, can straight up drop the lower quality pendants and belts, or just not drop them at all
earring and rings will most likely run you a few weeks if we're following off the normal prices and coin rates
at this point i think we'll be fine if flames are added considering people still need to get to a point to actually kill hellux (except for a select few and 1 dude who can fucking solo it)
bis post red on sades will most likely be just full cra, gollux, lgr, gsb, hi dim glove/SW glove (gl), weeb shoes/SW shoe, SW cape or nmag cape, SW mark and eye (or db mask/cpb mark if you hate them), tink belt and shoulder
 

yuvalzr234

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^ i dont want to open a bis gear for further on patch on this thread , but i think its a good thing to discuss in a different thread i guess.
but well i dont think that the set of gollux could be completed to 4 pieces without the (belt) slot (?)
not to mention the belt can have 3 +2 upgrades which with 2 good mcs can be around 60 atk and approx 85 stat. hmm another thing is with your build u cant combine the 2 reinforce pieces (pendant +ring) and 4 superior to gain 15 allstat buff (that cover on the 2 atk 3 stat loss from a superior pendant)
also u can't really wear 2 rings of the same kind right?
 

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