Why the damage cap should be raised pre-V

Do you believe the damage cap should be raised pre-V?

  • Yes

    Votes: 15 25.9%
  • No

    Votes: 43 74.1%

  • Total voters
    58

Meiko

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The damage cap of 50m presents 2 main issues: Unable to progress past a certain post, and Pre-V content being either impossible or limited to only the highest line/minute classes.

For me, and I imagine most players, the fun and satisfying part of maplestory is progressing your character, getting stronger and being able to do more and more content. When you reach a point you can no longer progress the game stops becoming rewarding and fun, and therefore worth playing. With starforce, flames, and stronger gear on the horizon, the cap will become an issue for most end game players.
Starforce alone, if implemented gms-like, would allow most current end-game players to cap relatively easily. A large portion of this servers active population are end game players, so it's not as if this change would only benefit a few extremely hardcore players.

Secondly, Lotus and Damien's hard modes are mathematically impossible with a 50m damage cap. Additionally normal lotus requiers a party of the highest line/minute classes hitting the damage cap to clear, limiting the content to only a few specific classes. Having content that is either impossible, or only possible for certian classes, regardless of their gear level, is bad design.

Raising the damage cap solves both these issues, and any potential downsides that this change has is greatly outweighed by the issues it solves.

With starforce in v157 and Lotus in v161, we will go nearly 20 versions before the damage cap is raised and gms solves this issue. The issue is large enough and lasts a long enough time to consider making an exception to rule against making changes that GMS makes in the future.

I believe the cap should be raised either when we get starforce or when we get lotus.

Sources: First normal lotus GMS kill:
WH (rank 1 potential dpm)
Kaiser (rank 3 potential dpm)
Merc (rank 5 potential dpm)
DB (rank 8 potential dpm)
Shade (split and bind support)
Bishop (support)
Potential damage of each class with 50m cap: http://www.basilmarket.com/Lets-make-an-HPS-DPS-list-once-and-for-all-Thread-b5E9Y (v172)
First GMS h lotus kill: 2017 (post V)
First GMS h damien kill: 2017 (post V)

edit:
its clear that this is too early to discuss this because it seems the majority of the players aren't aware of how large a boost to damage starforce is, and because it is not yet decided if we will get starforce without any other gear progression changes.
I want to note that if we were to get gms like starforce, all classes would be able to cap consistently with end game gear. not just i/ls and paladins. Even end game phantoms, WHs, kaisers, etc would be able to cap consistently self buffed with current end game gear, if it was fully starforced. The problem is not that a few hard hitting classes will be limited, its that all of them will be.

Yeah, this thread is discussing something months or years into the future, but i thought it would be good to discuss preemptively before problems arise.
 
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Sylosis

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This thread is obviously a bit premature but its probably better to start thinking about it now than later. When we do cross the bridge where we get sf we will for sure need a dmg cap raise to keep things from getting absurdly stale.

On a side note since we get sf on v157 and lotus on v161 the admins should just update to v156 beforehand then do an update to v161 since getting sf before lotus is pointless.
 
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float

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what do you expect the damage to be uncapped? hard lotus has like 20 times more hp than normal lotus, you'd need to average a bit over 1t dpm across the entire party (I expect the party running to be bishop + bam for blue aura + shade + 3 attackers)

gms first hlot clear the drk in it does 2b lines and they clear it in half the time so im kind of skeptical if uncapping would change anything, hope im wrong tho damage cap is boring
 
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Hyunation

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you know this is a big assumption that lotus will be coded and made available in the same version it was out in GMS. they haven't been doing that for the latest bosses.

"we will go nearly 20 versions before the damage cap is raised"

it's been 20 versions since magnus was supposed to be released too, didn't really kill the server that it wasn't available.

we probably won't need a premature cap raise. line story will happen, other classes before had their dominance, so will classes like wild hunter in v160.
 

Meiko

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@float @Hyunation The part that I care about more is being unable to progress after hitting 50m lines, and how easy that will be when/if we get starforce.


Even if hlotus is still impossible, at least classes that don't have the most hits/second will be able to participate in normal.

it's been 20 versions since magnus was supposed to be released too, didn't really kill the server that it wasn't available.
I'm not arguing that not raising the damage cap will kill the server, just that it will become very stale after you can't get any stronger, as sylosis said. And that it would be beneficial to raise it.
 

Katten-

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I'm not arguing that not raising the damage cap will kill the server, just that it will become very stale after you can't get any stronger, as sylosis said. And that it would be beneficial to raise it.
But enabling us to go past the cap would make the hardest bosses much easier, making the game even more boring.
 

kingraden

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Lol no, there isn’t a need for this at the moment besides it introduces less party play. Makes basically the top tier classes like il more broken than they already are and all content can be cleared with a ease as it stands

Your talking about lotus and Damien not being killable with 50m cap as if they were meant to be soloable on release again hurting party play if implemented and gms are against custom changes like this anyway
 

Sylosis

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I mean if we get sf/flames they will have to raise the cap either way. If we don't that's fine and they can leave everything as is.
 

Taboo

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The damage cap of 50m presents 2 main issues: Unable to progress past a certain post, and Pre-V content being either impossible or limited to only the highest line/minute classes.

For me, and I imagine most players, the fun and satisfying part of maplestory is progressing your character, getting stronger and being able to do more and more content. When you reach a point you can no longer progress the game stops becoming rewarding and fun, and therefore worth playing. With starforce, flames, and stronger gear on the horizon, the cap will become an issue for most end game players.
Starforce alone, if implemented gms-like, would allow most current end-game players to cap relatively easily. A large portion of this servers active population are end game players, so it's not as if this change would only benefit a few extremely hardcore players.

Secondly, Lotus and Damien's hard modes are mathematically impossible with a 50m damage cap. Additionally normal lotus requiers a party of the highest line/minute classes hitting the damage cap to clear, limiting the content to only a few specific classes. Having content that is either impossible, or only possible for certian classes, regardless of their gear level, is bad design.

Raising the damage cap solves both these issues, and any potential downsides that this change has is greatly outweighed by the issues it solves.

With starforce in v157 and Lotus in v161, we will go nearly 20 versions before the damage cap is raised and gms solves this issue. The issue is large enough and lasts a long enough time to consider making an exception to rule against making changes that GMS makes in the future.

I believe the cap should be raised either when we get starforce or when we get lotus.

Sources: First normal lotus GMS kill:
WH (rank 1 potential dpm)
Kaiser (rank 3 potential dpm)
Merc (rank 5 potential dpm)
DB (rank 8 potential dpm)
Shade (split and bind support)
Bishop (support)
Potential damage of each class with 50m cap: http://www.basilmarket.com/Lets-make-an-HPS-DPS-list-once-and-for-all-Thread-b5E9Y
First GMS h lotus kill: 2017 (post V)
First GMS h damien kill: 2017 (post V)

No, the real issue is how chaos scrolls were implemented.
I did my best to make sure things weren't so easily obtainable (making sure we had prime lines) to make room for other content like inner abilities.
However, I failed to realize that the main issue was chaos scrolls, which I did not have the data for. With its current implementation, I fail to see any other stat additions being considered. I created a thread about flames earlier, which were planned for future updates but I am quite hesitant to add them. Adding more stat enhancers will just bring up more unnecessary threads such as this, then following these threads, they'll get threads about increasing boss HPs, back and forth.


I've hinted at the fact that I had an idea, but I never commented about it because I know everyone will lose their minds. Unfortunately I don't see any other stat enhancers being added with the current system. I'll just throw my idea out there because it's something worth thinking about when considering the long term playability of Croosade.
My idea is this:
  1. Adopt the GMS chaos scroll rates.
  2. Nerf all existing scrolled equipment. Not only would this encourage people to restart their gear with star force, it'll level the playing field with new players that can't obtain such stats anymore. This will also remove the possibility of legacy items being better than any newly introduced equips. Ideally the items would be worse when comparing with a scrolled / enhanced item.
  3. Block all old items from being star forced. (This means all items before chaos scroll change).
  4. Allow old items to be star forced only if they are innocence scrolled which will revert all its stats back to base. This way you can keep your current potentials, but you'd have to restart the scrolling process.
  5. Introduce star force.
From there, it would open up the possibility of adding flames. Don't forget Hyper Stats come to the game eventually which are also very good.

So currently you can upgrade with:
- Chaos Scrolls
- Inner Ability
- Cube
Ideally with the change I propose:
- Chaos Scrolls
- Stat Scrolls
- Inner Ability
- Cube
- Star Force
- Flames
- Hyper Stats

Thus giving you many more ways to gear up. I find this to be a better path than only ever being given the option of farming chaos scrolls. I get the feeling that people wouldn't agree with getting a large nerf to all their gear they worked on so we're stuck with nothing. My idea requires a willingness to sacrifice current gear stats for healthier game progression. Maybe I'm out of touch with people's willingness, but I'm also a pessimist.🤷‍♂️
 

float

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No, the real issue is how chaos scrolls were implemented.
primes are consistently better than cogs, you'd need to lend a 6att mcs to outvalue a prime (w/o calculating main stats) so if mcses would get nerfed now (so people wont be able to prepare gear thats something like +20 in 2) with primes being introduced it will be pretty balanced and way less rng
 

Meiko

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No, the real issue is how chaos scrolls were implemented.
I did my best to make sure things weren't so easily obtainable (making sure we had prime lines) to make room for other content like inner abilities.
However, I failed to realize that the main issue was chaos scrolls, which I did not have the data for. With its current implementation, I fail to see any other stat additions being considered. I created a thread about flames earlier, which were planned for future updates but I am quite hesitant to add them. Adding more stat enhancers will just bring up more unnecessary threads such as this, then following these threads, they'll get threads about increasing boss HPs, back and forth.


I've hinted at the fact that I had an idea, but I never commented about it because I know everyone will lose their minds. Unfortunately I don't see any other stat enhancers being added with the current system. I'll just throw my idea out there because it's something worth thinking about when considering the long term playability of Croosade.
My idea is this:
  1. Adopt the GMS chaos scroll rates.
  2. Nerf all existing scrolled equipment. Not only would this encourage people to restart their gear with star force, it'll level the playing field with new players that can't obtain such stats anymore. This will also remove the possibility of legacy items being better than any newly introduced equips. Ideally the items would be worse when comparing with a scrolled / enhanced item.
  3. Block all old items from being star forced. (This means all items before chaos scroll change).
  4. Allow old items to be star forced only if they are innocence scrolled which will revert all its stats back to base. This way you can keep your current potentials, but you'd have to restart the scrolling process.
  5. Introduce star force.
From there, it would open up the possibility of adding flames. Don't forget Hyper Stats come to the game eventually which are also very good.

So currently you can upgrade with:
- Chaos Scrolls
- Inner Ability
- Cube
Ideally with the change I propose:
- Chaos Scrolls
- Stat Scrolls
- Inner Ability
- Cube
- Star Force
- Flames
- Hyper Stats

Thus giving you many more ways to gear up. I find this to be a better path than only ever being given the option of farming chaos scrolls. I get the feeling that people wouldn't agree with getting a large nerf to all their gear they worked on so we're stuck with nothing. My idea requires a willingness to sacrifice current gear stats for healthier game progression. Maybe I'm out of touch with people's willingness, but I'm also a pessimist.🤷‍♂️
I would definitely be willing to sacrifice my scrolled gear for a healthier progression, the current progression of spending billions and billions trying to hit a good mcs or 2 and then coging is incredibly frustrating and volatile in nature, i would much prefer a system like star-force + spelltrace where your progress is more stable and predictable.
 

yuvalzr234

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ill just sum up my opinion in short:
you want harder and more challenging game, play harder and more challenging class. u can't go complaining for stuff like that when u go for classes with 100% elemental ignores and shit tons of ied ofcourse at some point you will hit the ceiling... Like as people's skin change fast every patch in this game and adjust like puppets to current meta it shudnt be problem for them to re-adjust...
 

Meiko

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ill just sum up my opinion in short:
you want harder and more challenging game, play harder and more challenging class. u can't go complaining for stuff like that when u go for classes with 100% elemental ignores and shit tons of ied ofcourse at some point you will hit the ceiling... Like as people's skin change fast every patch in this game and adjust like puppets to current meta it shudnt be problem for them to re-adjust...
neither of my points were about making the game more or less challenging
idk if you have played with starforce before but if you did then you'd know that literally every class would be able to cap easily with starforced end-game gear, not just ele reset classes.
 

Crustyy

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I can see where you and many other (mages KEK) are coming from with this post being players that are limited by the damage cap of 50m. As a player who had methodically thought through how and what I’m going to progress based on the what the server provided in terms of upgrade pathways, I cannot agree with raising the damage cap pre-V.

This post is reminiscent of previous posts made pre-unleashed where many players had suggested to raise the damage cap over 1m because their specific classes had already reached their full potential. Let’s not forget that the top players of the strongest class at the time (Mercedes) were not even hitting the 1m cap on the strongest boss available at the time (Empress). Raising the damage cap on players who specifically strategized to become the strongest in the server in the long run is essentially a slap in the face because their progress will mean nothing after raising the damage cap unexpectedly.

I understand that people enjoy their classes and don’t want to be forced to class hop because there’s another class of the same (or different!) branch that just outperforms your class in terms of DPS. But let’s look at it from the other side, what if Croosade did remove the damage cap? Do you understand how many (fire/poison) mage players there’s going to be? There’s always going to be a dynamic between classes that are easy to fund and output a great deal of damage that are capped out by the limited lines they do and those classes that require much more time and effort put in to achieve the higher potential ceiling before the V patch (talking mostly hurricane classes); the game was designed this way.

With the video you attached, you’re only proving that normal lotus is killable with the 50m damage cap (let’s not even talk about hlot even with the damage cap raise with the current gear progression in Croosade). The real issue lies in classes that won’t even be able to reach the 50m damage cap in the first place.

I believe that Croosade should just stick the GMS timeline for major changes like the removal of the damage cap. As much as it’s a headache for players who play specific classes for the sake of liking the class, it’s just part of the Maplestory experience. We stuck through it during Unleashed, and we can stick through it until the V patch.
 

yuvalzr234

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neither of my points were about making the game more or less challenging
idk if you have played with starforce before but if you did then you'd know that literally every class would be able to cap easily with starforced end-game gear, not just ele reset classes.
then i really have nothing to say on the matter since ur talkig about versions that are probably 1 year 2 years away from croosade xD
 

Slumber

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My idea is this:
  1. Adopt the GMS chaos scroll rates.
  2. Nerf all existing scrolled equipment. Not only would this encourage people to restart their gear with star force, it'll level the playing field with new players that can't obtain such stats anymore. This will also remove the possibility of legacy items being better than any newly introduced equips. Ideally the items would be worse when comparing with a scrolled / enhanced item.
  3. Block all old items from being star forced. (This means all items before chaos scroll change).
  4. Allow old items to be star forced only if they are innocence scrolled which will revert all its stats back to base. This way you can keep your current potentials, but you'd have to restart the scrolling process.
  5. Introduce star force.
Hmmm, kind of brainstorming a response, but I'll reply in order as above.

1) Some folks might be frustrated, but much like classes get nerfed or buffed, sure, okay. Also, MCS being a +/-10 was clearly a private server disinformation that continually spread for over a decade?

2) If the cap on MCS is +/-6 then reducing any MCS effects that hit 7-10 to the +6 still doesn't seem like a good solution. In the grand scheme of things this won't really lower your totals unless you used 3-5 MCS on all your gear.... Sure, it gets rid of legacy possibilities, but the precedent on this isn't here. Take legacy CHTPs (5 slots vs 3 slots because of egg abuse) as those were never nerfed upon requests here and for quite some time (10 patches?) there were no other optimal pendants to replace them with (alas the latter point is now void). CHTP and Chaos is slightly different but a similar point on nerfing equipment I hope is coming across here.

3) I get the idea of blocking all items as a simple nerf to +6 for anything 7-10 gives folks way more opportunities to land that 6 pre chaos scroll change. I am not sure if a compromise of --> If you landed a +6,7, 8, or 9 it'll be reduced to +4 and if you landed a +10 it'll be reduced to +6. This seems like a bit more balanced and doesn't necessarily block newer players from achieving similar gear. I would like to avoid the blocking of old items unless innocence'd, potentially.

4) See 3. I think this one sits weird with a bunch of players saying you have legacy and some-what dead weight items unless staff is providing an innocent option here.

5) Yay. I think most folks just like star force.

----
A damage cap increase will simply lead to boss HP or creating harder modes which digresses from regular progression and what not. Let's not. In regards to damage cap for mages and classes with elemental reset/void, Paladins lose this in 157-160, Cygnus classes (barring blaze wizard on Flames of Creation, which isn't 100% up time) lose their 100% elemental reset in 157-ish, so you'll be seeing a 50% damage reduction there. I/L, F/P, Evan, and future Blaze Wizards will probably hit the cap still on infinity for the former (Infinity receives a 10-->8% nerf but I'm certain folks will cap for a good chunk of the duration), but mages are simply not hitting consistent 50mil lines off infinity so eh.
 

Meiko

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its clear that this is too early to discuss this because it seems the majority of the players aren't aware of how large a boost to damage starforce is, and because it is not yet decided if we will get starforce without any other gear progression changes.
I want to note that if we were to get gms like starforce, all classes would be able to cap consistently with end game gear. not just i/ls and paladins. Even end game phantoms, WHs, kaisers, etc would be able to cap consistently self buffed with current end game gear, if it was fully starforced. The problem is not that a few hard hitting classes will be limited, its that all of them will be.

Yeah, this thread is discussing something months or years into the future, but i thought it would be good to discuss preemptively before problems arise.
 

Rats

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yea good luck trying to starforce your gear lad, tell me how long it'll take before you gotta farm the meso again. anyone who played gms nowadays can tell you how good starforcing is and how fucking retarded it is. it's not cheap for a reason
 

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